How To Let Go Of Your Fears And Skyrocket Your Sales
If you are struggling to sell as effectively as you want to, most likely you are dealing with some inner game issue.
Perhaps it’s the fear of being rejected, being seen as “pushy”, feeling uncomfortable about asking directly for the sale, or any other inner obstacles that stops you from boldly connecting with people and finding a way to help them through your product or service.
Join Dr. Aziz in the second half of his interview with David Schwendiman where they dive into how to let go of all these fears so you can skyrocket your sales (and enjoy yourself along the way!).
Click below to hear this episode!
David Schwendiman is a world class sales trainer and coach. He has helped hundreds of people overcome their fears and become excellent at creating sales and increasing their income. To learn more about David’s programs and coaching, go here.
How to Serve Others in Sales
Welcome to another episode of Shrink for the Shy Guy. I’m excited because today we’re going to be diving back into maximizing your sales confidence. And again this is one of the most important areas you can master directly for sales in your life or just the growth that you have to do in order to do sales is going to benefit you in all areas of life because it involves facing your fears. Your fear or rejection, your fear of no, and of all is putting yourself out there again even if someone has said no. It involves learning how to connect with people.
And as we’re learning from our interview with Dave which we started last week and we’re going to continue this week, it ultimately brings us to a place of service because to truly sell effectively we have to be not focused on ourselves but focus on the other people and how we can serve them. And in a way that’s kind of like a spiritual practice or discipline because the pull is to focus on me, me. Am I doing good enough? Do they like me? Am I smart enough? Am I effective enough? Me! And the more we focus on that the worse we get at sales and the worse we feel, too. The harder the rejections are the harder it is to put ourselves out there. So it’s a really powerful practice to get us to focus on other people and it pushes all kinds of buttons. We’re going to be diving into that more in the interview with Dave but stuff about money, talking about money, earning money, asking for money. Stuff about, you know, staying in the conversation even after the person has initially said, no I’m not interested or no I can’t afford it or now is not the right time.
The most natural impulse is to say, okay, great, I’ll leave you alone. And yet if you did that you’d never be effective at sales and the reality is even though someone says that if you stayed in the conversation and just asked him a few more questions and found out some of their fears, then they might turn around and say, you know what, actually yeah I really want this I’m just scared. And then now you have a powerful opportunity, a moment where you’re really serving them, you’re really helping them. So we’re going to look at that in much more depth in today’s interview with selling expert, Dave. And this is really going to be about the inner game how to get your head on right so you can get out there and you’re going to learn some powerful stuff about letting go of the outcome and not being hooked into a specific result with a specific person. So really valuable stuff. Let’s dive in to that interview right now.
Dr. Aziz: Yeah, it’s interesting because you know I didn’t study sales, I started training in clinical psychology and being a counselor and you don’t have to sell if you’re a counselor. I have my own private practice and basically just put some stuff up online and put yourself in some directories and get a network of other therapists and people refer people to you. When someone comes in for counseling they’re like, I need counseling. You are in my insurance panel, you’ll do. And that’s sort of how people select it there’s no sales. And then, you know, I moved in to coaching and creating programs and trainings and I had to learn how to offer these things in the world and it pushed a lot of my own buttons and my own confidence edges. And one thing that I found really fascinating is that the more focused I was on service like I changed the name if I was going to talk to someone and they’re interested in coaching I used to call them en enrollment conversations because that’s what a teacher of mine called them and I changed the name. Because when I called it an enrollment conversation that meant that I had to enroll them.
David: Right, that was the sales conversation.
Dr. Aziz: That’s the sales. I’m like, shit, I don’t want that and there’s this pressure and I failed and so I started calling them inquiry conversations. This is just an inquiry to see how I might be able to serve this person if I think I love what you’re talking about because I did the same thing I was like I’m not even sure if coaching is what’s going to be best for them. Maybe they could start with a product of mine, they could be in a group, thy could buy my 10-dollar book. My deep belief and what gave me confidence approaching these things was, you know, especially if someone wants to work on their confidence doing something is going to be, you know, better than doing nothing. So, that’s where I came from that sense of like believing in the product or the service.
But the most fascinating thing and I’d love to get your thoughts on this. I found that when I first started I talked about the coaching they’re very excited then we talked about the logistics, the fees, and people would say, ah… I don’t know about that. I’d say, okay. Well, see you later. And then what I found is that is I just stayed in the conversation and said, well tell me more, let’s talk about it, let’s explore, something would shift not all the time but sometimes where there’ll just be this no, it’s not quite right, I don’t think so, I’m not sure. And then all of a sudden like, okay, let’s do it. And it boggled my mind because I was like they seem to certain that they didn’t want to do it and then it just switched. Is that something you’ve experienced and what’s going on there and how do we learn from that?
David: What’s going on in that client’s head or…
Dr. Aziz: Yeah. What’s going on to help us understand how to serve people better and, you know, become more confident in selling just s we understand that phenomenon. What do you think is happening there?
David: You know, I honestly believe especially in the coaching world and even in the insurance world they don’t see what I can do yet. I mean, it’s a matter of try and think of a good context to put this in. When I’m doing insurance and I come in more expensive I never worried about it because I knew what I had met that client’s needs. I guess that’s how I’ll say it. So I’ll do an insurance setting and on a coaching setting. So if I’m going in and I’m talking to a client I’m not ready to make that proposal until I know exactly where the gaps are, what they care about most, and how I’m going to fix that for them. So therefore when somebody says to me, gosh your policy is like 1000 dollars a year higher and I say, absolutely. But it does this, this, and this. You know, I was quoting out a woman who owned an art store who was all glass art and it’s all beautifully displayed on these shelves and I’m looking over her policy and I noticed she doesn’t have any earthquake coverage on there.
And I already know my policy is going to be way more expensive without the earthquake and so when I tossed earthquake on it and we sat down and she says, Dave, this is outrageous. And I said, yeah, but I noticed your current policy doesn’t have any earthquake on there. What happens if there is any kind of ground moment? I mean, do you have everything glued down or what are you going to do in that case? And she says like, I’d lose it all. I said, perfect, my policy covers that. So if you’re interested in making sure you’re covered should that happen then we should keep talking. And that was it. I figured out what was most important to her which is this business. She was completely exposed in losing everything so I provided a solution.
And in coaching I tend to coach business owners and sales people so in a way I have it pretty easy where I sit down with a client and I say, if we coach together what do you want to create? And that’s where the unreasonable goals come in. They usually say, well, based on last year I think I can do this much. And then we started talking about if we didn’t have these limitations or these limiting beliefs what would you love to create and that’s when they get really big. Oh gosh, man. I just had a client my most recent client is making about 5000 a month he’d love to be making 20,000 a month. So we started talking about that, okay, so if we work together we do this, this, and this, we create 20,000 dollars a month for you. We started seeing how that’s possible. Well now my fee is nothing so if I propose a fee it was like, I can’t afford that. Okay, so you can’t afford to invest this much money to make 2, 3 times that amount every month. Explain to me how that works. And then after, they explain to me why it’s not worth it to invest in this.
Dr. Aziz: Absolutely and it’s so interesting because what I’m hearing in what you’re saying is that the shift happens in someone when they see the value of whatever the investment is whether it’s an insurance, the value of protecting all our assets in the event of an earthquake, or this example to this client, the monetary return and then also all that comes with that the ability to be making 20,000 and who he has to become in order to be able to do that. So, that is fascinating. And one thing I was just realizing as we’re talking is a lot of people have a discomfort with selling and maybe limit themselves and put caps on themselves because on some level they believe that it’s bad that they’re somehow, oh I’m manipulating that person, they don’t really need it, I’m being pushy in making that happen. And how have you worked with that in yourself how have you helped some of the people you’ve trained and coached to overcome that fear?
David: So there’s two things that I focus on. Number 1 is why aren’t you worth it? And that’s the first thing we got to figure out because I definitely had to go through that. If I am today making more money than I’ve ever made before and in a way if I am not careful I start to get really uncomfortable with that especially if we’re looking at our parents and making more than our parents made which is the case for me it’s very strange to have this level of income and for me it’s not a sweet let’s go brag about it I’m going to go buy a new car and go, you know, do all this stuff. In fact when I really stop and think about it it’s a worthiness issue where money is tied to my self-worth in a lot of ways and this is something I’m still working through with my coach as the income goes up otherwise if I’m not careful I’m going to find ways to sabotage and stop that from happening.
So, that’s number 1 is we got to figure out the internal belief as to why aren’t you worth that money and the way I’ve made that shift is by looking at and I literally keep a sheet of success stories of my clients of ways that I’ve made my clients’ lives better or things where they’ve come back to me and said after a talk I gave one time was a couple of days seminar I had someone come up to me and say, it must feel really good to know that you just changed someone’s life. Okay, if I’m doing that level of service then the money now is not about me the money is just a barometer or how well I’m serving people. And it’s just a thermometer that when it goes up well my service is really high it must be really high this month because I’m getting a lot of money in here. Or I’m not serving this month because my income is low.
So I changed how I looked at it so it’s no longer about am I worth it or not it’s just about my level of service I’m giving. And the second trick and it’s funny that you bring this up this is an assignment I just gave a client yesterday afternoon, is just stop looking at it. Don’t look at the money. His rule is for the next month he’s not allowed to look at his bank account or his sales. Instead his success relies entirely in this case the number of nos that he gets, the number of people that tell him no I will never work with you and he has to get 5 of those every day. And already today this is his first day of it and he text me this afternoon and he has to give me an update every day and he said, I got 1 no for today but my sales they’re off the charts. And I said F that, I don’t care. You don’t leave the office until you get 4 more nos.
I don’t care what your numbers are I don’t want to hear that. For the next month you’re not supposed to be looking at that you’re supposed to be showing up serving people and getting them to tell you, no. That’s all we care about. So, otherwise this guy is going up and down every day base on his sales are working out.
Dr. Aziz: Yeah. Let’s talk a little bit more about that last part. I love that. I mean that reminds me of the whole concept of go for no and so setting no goals is that something that you often suggest for sales?
David: It depends on how quickly and how aggressive this person wants to be. It wasn’t something I did when I was an agent. I’ve done it now just for fun to try and push myself and push my own ego and see how much I can take, because you can take 5 nos a day the person you become is pretty incredible. When I was in sales my own rule was I had to talk to 20 people a day who were decision makers. And so I would literally I’m sitting in my office it might be 6, 7 at night I’d have 20 M&M’s lined up on my desk from when I got there that morning and I wasn’t allowed to go home until all 20 of those were done. And I got to eat one every time that I talk to a person because I figured out by tracking all my numbers I figured out that if I tagged 20 conversations I set 2 appointments and I close roughly 85% of the appointment I had with someone actually sat face to face with me. And so then I could just determine exactly how much money I wanted to make based on how many conversations I had when I worked the math backwards.
So, sometimes we do that I have clients that will to have this many conversations. Another favorite one that I have is we just draw a big T chart on a piece of paper and I write no on one side and yes on the other. I do this one for people who aren’t in traditional sales maybe I’ve got a customer service rep who needs to start selling to keep their job or to make some extra money. And I say your job isn’t to sell anybody, your job is to get them on side of this line or the other. Either a firm no they don’t want it or a firm yes they’re coming in to but tomorrow you got to get them out of this maybe land that lives in between because that’s not a good place. And so in that way they don’t have to sell they just have to say, Aziz, do you want this or don’t you. I’m not actually allowed to let you off the phone until I get an answer one way or the another. So if you’re just going to want to tell me no, fantastic we can be done, or if it’s a yes, then I need to figure out a time when you can come in here and we can get this done.
And so they’re not selling. And I had a girl who told me I don’t want to sell, don’t try and make me sell, I’ll quit. And I said, you don’t have to sell you just have to get someone on one side of this line or the other and that next week she sold 10 life insurance policies. And she goes, everyone’s saying yes all of a sudden. I can’t figure out why this is happening now. And it was really because she was somebody give her a clear answer. But she wasn’t focused on the sale. In each of these scenarios I’ taking the focus off of an outcome I have no control over and putting it on something that I do have control over and that’s really empowering for us I think.
Dr. Aziz: Yeah and so what is it? We have control over how many phone calls we make, how many conversations we have, whether we encourage them to make the decision before we get off the phone.
David: Yup, exactly.
Dr. Aziz: Yeah, let’s talk about the maybe land because that one’s really interesting. That’s the place that a lot of people seem to go which is, you know, this sounds great and I want to think about it more. In your perspective is the I want to think about it basically never going to turn out? Does it turn out? Is it…
David: I don’t know. It’s a place we love to hide. It’s a place that sales people love to when you talk to almost any sales people. How’s the month going? Well not good but I got a lot of stuff in the hopper I think good stuff is going to come through.
Dr. Aziz: They’ll be back. They’re coming back.
David: Yeah. So we hide out there because it could happen, you know. I haven’t been rejected yet but it could there’s a chance. And so we live in this fantasyland because we’re too scared to get that person on one side or the other. We’d rather chase a bad lead for 2 months and then be really heartbroken when it doesn’t work rather than find out on day 1 that they’re not going to work with us and then because then we have to go back out and start prospecting again. And I’ll watch sales people just spend hours and hours and fill their day with follow up calls to clients who have no intention of ever buying from them just so they can feel like they’re doing something while at the same time complaining to me that their numbers aren’t what they want them to be. And so it takes some guts but that’s the trick is you have control over that. You can decide, I can decide how many conversations I have and I can decide if somebody is going to say, give me a yes or no.
So if I get that maybe my clients aren’t allowed to accept that answer. So if you said I got to think about it, I’d say fantastic, how many days do you want to think for? Should we get back together 2 days from now, 3 days, when are we going to have this decision. So that way the client won’t commit to that then I’d say, perfect, what I’m going to do is it sounds like this isn’t a good fit for you right now I’m going to put you in my no call, is that all right if I do that? And in that way I don’t have to keep following up with you and I’m not bothering you and wasting your time or mine and if they agree to it then great. They’re a no and I move on to the next person.
But I won’t let them stay in maybe land. Even my clients when I prospect when I decided to prospect now they’re not allowed to leave me in that place.
Dr. Aziz: Yeah. And in terms of the kind of squeamish discomfort-y feeling might arise from the, that will arise. In fact as you’re talking I imagine doing that I’m just like squeamishly uncomfortable. Like, oh that’s so forceful, right? And yet everything you’re saying makes sense. So how do you help people deal with that feeling of *0:8:33 hesitancy I want to please people, I don’t want to be hard and direct. How do you deal people with that?
Let’s pause for just one more moment and then get back into the rest of the interview with Dave.
David: First of all you got to find a way to do it that fits your personality. If you’re trying to be someone you’re not it won’t ever work for you. And so it comes back to kind of a sports analogy is we’re going to try a couple of different versions of this until you find one that works for you. So what I just said right there that might be way too direct for somebody else in which case I would say what feels off about that? And we talk about it till we got it to a place that felt good for them. So it has to feel good for otherwise you won’t do it and you’ll feel squeamish and you’ll back out immediately. On the other hand, so I’m afraid I’m going to lose my train of thought here.
We’re done with if it feels off to be that pushy with somebody is that what we’re looking at with getting them in the one camp or the other?
Dr. Aziz: Yeah, just being that direct and…
David: So here’s what got me over it is what I’m not doing is I’m actually and your clients will love you for this if you actually take it on, what we’re doing is we are helping that client. Their fear is a lot of the time the client’s fear is that they’re going to hurt our feelings as sales people. They don’t want to be the one to tell us no because they’re worried they’re going to let us down in some way. And so what I do is I make it very, very clear that no is a perfectly acceptable answer in fact it would be great just to get it out on the table right now so that we understand that either the timing is wrong or your just not that interested and once I help my client understand that I’m okay with that and that no is perfectly fine then we can have an honest conversation. So I’m actually in a way I’m not trying to pitch and hold them I never want to do that in sales I want to make them feel completely free to be honest with me.
Because once you’re being honest with each other then we can have a real conversation. So my approach to it will be, Aziz, it sounds like you’re not interested right now which is totally cool but I need to know so that I know where to spend my time if this isn’t something that’s going to work just let me know that way I’m not calling you and doing these awkward checkups and stuff and you’re not having to play this game of pretending you’re still interested. And I might say that to you directly ad so I say, if this isn’t the right time or you’re never going to do this just let me know and then I really enjoyed talking to you, I wish you the best of luck and I’m going to move on to somebody else. And you’re free to tell me that but oftentimes clients at that point when they see you’re serious then they commit.
Dr. Aziz: Right. That’s powerful. And there’s so much more we could dive into on this and just an interest of time I’m just going to end with this one question. Let’s say you has a client who came to you and they were willing to do whatever it took, you know. They may say yeah I might feel afraid, I might feel squeamish, but I’m going to do this. I’m ready to face my fear. What would you say is that most powerful or the best pathway that they could have to have more confidence in their sales, more success in their sales. If they’re willing to do anything what would some of the main key elements of their success, what would that be?
David: Number 1 I’d say who are the best people in your industry and have you talked to them yet? So I always have my people find out who’s just killing it in their business and call that person. Because one thing I’ve learned is as people grow and become more and more successful they have the money what they really want is the recognition a lot of the time and they want to be able to share. And so those people it’s really a gift to that person to call them and say, please teach me. So I always have them reach out to somebody else. One of the biggest shifts for me in sales and something I use to this day and I use it socially as well I wish I’d known this in my dating life is, sales is not about being smooth or having the right script or the right thing to say, it’s about asking a lot of questions and not being the one to show up and educate your clients. Your clients don’t want to be educated.
So, one of the things I do when I’m working on scripts with people or how to make those initial calls if they really do anything: Number 1, we’re going to change your script, your script is oftentimes too much about you and we changed the entire script around to where it’s just piles of questions and asking really interested questions and answering everything with a question and I just had this happening today. I was talking with a guy who’s very high up with Nike and we sat down at my daughter’s gymnastics class and I use this all the time with strangers i just say, what do you do and what do you like about it? We talked for probably an hour. I only asked him questions.
He talked the whole time at the end of that class he goes, man, I have really enjoyed this conversation. I thought, yeah it was completely one-sided, you know. I didn’t share anything about me this was entirely you talking at me and he just loved it. And that’s a trick I use in sales constantly it’s not about me it’s about the client. And so I’m just going to keep asking them questions, keep asking them questions, takes all the pressure off of me to be interesting or funny or anything like that and they end up loving it. So I use it at parties like I said I wish I would’ve known this when I was dating would’ve made things a lot easier and we don’t need to be the good one we can just ask questions the whole time.
And then the last one is stop stressing about what you can’t control. If my client is willing to do anything and that’s this guy that I was just telling the story about I said, are you willing to really turn this on? He said, I’m ready, and that’s when I said don’t look at your numbers. I don’t want you to look at how much money you’re making I want you only to look at and we figured out the metric in this case it was number of nos the metric that would get him where he wanted to be if we just track that metric. So, focus on what you can control, those are the three things.
Dr. Aziz: That is powerful. Man, this is great. I can just hear as you talk that you know this stuff inside and out and it’s not just about sales. As we’re diving to this conversation so much of this is about inner game stuff, about confidence, about self-worth, about how to let go of the outcome, how to truly serve people. I mean there’s just so much good stuff in here and I can’t think of a better person to learn this from. As a matter of fact in our last minutes here I understand that you just launched an online training program specifically targeting new insurance agents. So maybe we can talk a little bit about that program but then also your coaching in general and how if someone wants to get better at sales how they can get in touch with you and we’ll make sure we have links down below to on the sites so people can access that.
David: Perfect. So I have one of our fellow coaches my website is in development this is a relatively new venture for me but it does have all my contact info on it. So davidschwendiman.com is the domain where someone can reach out to me or get in touch. Yeah, I saw there’s such a need for good sales training out there and sales training that’s not focused on again manipulating or only ask questions the client can say yes to. All this stuff that I was trained on that I really just threw away when I started having some success. So I put this course together and it’s a mix of that tracking. Like I said, each week we layer on a new layer. Like week 1 your job and your homework is to talk to 10 strangers a day. You don’t have to sell them you just have to talk to them and then mark down that you did it.
So kind of getting people slowly out of their shell over the course of 6 weeks to the time where when I’ve done this with other agents usually it takes an agent about 6 months to get up and running I’ve had agents do it in a month or 2 months by using this. So it’s really just taking this stuff and step by step working on the mindset in tandem with the actions that will get you to be successful and we’re going to have all that information on the website as well. So I just launched it is specific for insurance I’m looking at revamping it to make it so it’s a better fit for no matter what industry you’re in. Because at the end of the day these tools work no matter what you’re doing that’s what I’m finding out as I coach more and more people is the same stuff works everywhere.
Dr. Aziz: Absolutely. And if someone wanted to find out more about working with you directly for coaching would they go to the same site or where would they go?
David: Yeah, yeah. Really. Like I said I don’t have business cards it’s very informal usually people reach out to me if I get a referral or someone who’s interested. I just kind of figure out first I just want to know what their goals are and sometimes I’ll have then write down their goals or send me a long rambling email telling me about them. Whatever helps me get to know them and if it seems like a good fit then we hop on the phone we talk and I’ve had clients where one phone call is enough to send them off and they are off to the races and they’re going to hit those goals with just that. And others who really want to achieve something big and scary then we might end up working together.
Dr. Aziz: That is fantastic.
David: I’m pretty booked up that’s the fun thing about doing this is is as it works I don’t have a ton of room but I always keep space open because I love having these conversations. So, if someone really wanted to talk then we would find the time to connect.
Dr. Aziz: That is great and I’ll make sure we have a link down below for the site so people can access that as well.
David: Perfect. That sounds good.
Dr. Aziz: Awesome. Thank you so much for joining us, Dave.
David: Yeah. Thanks, Aziz. This is fun.
Dr. Aziz: That brings us to the end of the interview and the end of our show except we can’t leave without what? That’s right, action. Because as interesting as this was or as many insights as you had unless you put this into action nothing will change in your life so let’s do that now.
Your action step for today is to detach yourself from a specific outcome and set a goal of actions, things that you’re going to do. So remember in the interview he was talking about I had 20 M&Ms on my table and I didn’t leave until I talked to 20 decision makers and each time I talked to a person I could eat an M&M so that was he set up his goal that’s something he could control which is I could talk to 20 people. Or the client that he’s working with he said, stop focusing on the outcome and your sales and start focusing on getting nos. You got to get 5 nos per day. So you’re going to want to set some goal for yourself that is like that. A really simple one is the no goal. I’m going to get 3 nos a day, I’m going to get 5 nos this week. Whatever it is but you’re going for no.
It’s really powerful and I talked about that in my interview with Andrea Waltz, the author of a book called, Go for No. If you want to go back and search the episodes you can find it but very powerful. But you want to set some sort of goal that is in your control and then take action to make that happen. So instead of I got to talk to 5 people and get them to buy from me, well that’s outside of your control what those 5 people are going to do but I’m going to have 5 conversations with people, that’s inside your control. I’m going to get 3 nos, well that’s in your control, too, because you can just keep talking to people and keep asking until you get nos.
So get out there, take those actions, and again if you’re not doing sales right now you still might want to consider practicing this stuff, apply it to something else. Say, maybe if you’re looking at dating and relationships so I’m going to get 3 nos from women this week. Whatever it is you can apply this to any area of your life of just getting out there, taking action, putting the things that are in your control and then letting the rest go, letting the outcome go.
So thanks so much for joining me today. If you like to share about your experience please join us in the community which is facebook.com/socialconfidence. You can also go to shrinkfortheshyguy.com and find out show notes there, get links to Dave’s programs, or just find out more about Dave as well as leave me a message and chat with me through the show. I love to hear from people that are listening hear from you directly.
So thanks so much for listening and until we speak again. May you have the courage to be who you are and to know on a deep level that you’re awesome.
All music is licensed or royalty free.
DeepSound – Rain Clouds
(Licensed through Pond5.com)
Ask The Shrink:
(Licensed through Pond5.com)
Justin Crosby – Skrillit
(Licensed through Pond5.com)
Lokfield – Terra’s Theme Dubstep
(Creative Commons License)